By Ozzy
#7130
Val wrote:
Dan wrote:
Heidi wrote:Dating back to Pohnpei after the first swap, I knew you were the most on the outside of the Indonesian Elephant and the other alliances that existed before the games,


Why does she keep saying this? Can someone inform me of every pre-game that existed please.

What was the Indo elephant? If anything this game has proven it's that there was never an Indo alliance. Apart from the constant whinging about supposed pre-game alliances, I actually really rate Heidi's FTC.


I think it was tactical throughout the game and kinda is here now. If you create a lie that other's believe, then it becomes the defacto truth of the game, and I think she played it to her benefit.

But, no, there was no pre-game. But I don't think she meant that there was a pregame, but instead just that we'd be close.


GET OUT OF MY HEAD! Perception is truth in this game.
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Ozzy

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By Val
#7132 @Ozzy, I will never leave that beautiful head of yours!

And

@Rocky, In re to the previous conversation about his sway in the early merge (I believe from context that's what we were talking about):

Hayden wrote:I'll admit that my decisions were often shut down, and at times it came to a point where I wished I was I would have made myself heard more...
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Val

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By Rocky
#7135 cmon val, include the whole quote, he was talking about how he ended up not being voiceless and the decisions made that he didn't pipe up for ended up being incorrect. he's basically saying a polite version of "i told you so"

using quotes out of context is a little slimey.
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Rocky

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By Ozzy
#7137 Yea seems like Hayden just had no other options in the pre-merge, and I won't hold that against him. But he really was the #2 or #3 in his alliance, not the #1.
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Ozzy

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By Richard
#7138 " it's been an honour to be part of such an amazing season with incredible players." -Penner
PENNER YOUR UK IS SHOWING
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Richard

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By Dan
#7139
Ozzy wrote:Yea seems like Hayden just had no other options in the pre-merge, and I won't hold that against him. But he really was the #2 or #3 in his alliance, not the #1.


true, but i can assure you he wasn't a +1 for the alliance. he was one of the only people in this game I trusted all the way and i talked about everything with him. i can't vouch for his game after i was gone, but while i was there he was never a silent +1 for me. he was very prominent in all strategy discussions
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Dan

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By Val
#7140
Rocky wrote:cmon val, include the whole quote, he was talking about how he ended up not being voiceless and the decisions made that he didn't pipe up for ended up being incorrect. he's basically saying a polite version of "i told you so"

using quotes out of context is a little slimey.


I didn't mean it that way. i figured you could read the whole the thing. My argument was not on how right he was, but it was a response to say he really wasn't a huge voice. I'm specifically talking about when he was WITH the majority! Nothing slimy, I swear.
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Val

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By Val
#7141 We all have the context because we're participating in the FTC. I didn't think the "i told you so" was relevant to my discussion about his voice in the majority.
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Val

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By Ozzy
#7142
Dan wrote:
Ozzy wrote:Yea seems like Hayden just had no other options in the pre-merge, and I won't hold that against him. But he really was the #2 or #3 in his alliance, not the #1.


true, but i can assure you he wasn't a +1 for the alliance. he was one of the only people in this game I trusted all the way and i talked about everything with him. i can't vouch for his game after i was gone, but while i was there he was never a silent +1 for me. he was very prominent in all strategy discussions


Yea that's fair. This is a tough one. Different styles with different pros and different cons.
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Ozzy

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By Rocky
#7143
Val wrote:
Rocky wrote:cmon val, include the whole quote, he was talking about how he ended up not being voiceless and the decisions made that he didn't pipe up for ended up being incorrect. he's basically saying a polite version of "i told you so"

using quotes out of context is a little slimey.


I didn't mean it that way. i figured you could read the whole the thing. My argument was not on how right he was, but it was a response to say he really wasn't a huge voice. I'm specifically talking about when he was WITH the majority! Nothing slimy, I swear.

awright, but i got my eye on you. the only slimey stuff i'm a part of is in the bedroom.
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Rocky

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By Ozzy
#7165 Okay so I'm debating.

Something that really sticks with me is the thought that Tammy could have done this without Heidi, but Heidi couldn't have done this without Tammy. That gives Tammy major kudos. And she kept Heidi around because she knew Heidi needed her more. But how much did she actually do?

Heidi also totally botched my FTC question. I didn't vote for nate that night and she told me to vote Penner (which I did). So points taken form Heidi for that. I also think Tammy hit a good point in my boot episode that Heidi was kind of embarrassing. I was literally telling Hayden to vote Heidi and she was debating saving me? Like what? Weird.

Hayden got dealt a bad hand and I won't hold anything against him. But I really don't see his game working without Dan and Sierra. You take them out of the equation and Hayden probably flounders. He relied too heavily on other people, as did Heidi.

I'm sill unsure here. I'm seeing some major flaws is them and little actual positives. Any other thoughts from the peanut gallery?
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Ozzy

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By Sierra
#7166 I actually didn't hate any of the three FTC performances, just caught up. Time to vomit some thoughts.

I can totally vouch for everything Hayden said regarding his increased assertiveness throughout the game. I actually remember being somewhat taken aback when he began giving me real pushback on some ideas around the F9/F8 range, since he HAD been trying to play up the obedient follower role to that point to gain underestimated status. He was very aware of how he'd be perceived and his own weaknesses, and did well working around that.

He knew that he needed to really begin playing his own game, and I mean... regarding that quote you posted Ozzy, from Heidi... TBH, she confirmed earlier in the TC that she and Tammy were taking Hayden to the end over Penner, yet later got on him for opting to enter F4 with a pair when the only thing that would've put him in danger was a Penner IC. If the F4 was Hayden, Ozzy, Tammy and Penner, is that REALLY that much better of a setup for Hayden's chances to win the game? Idk about you guys, but I think the answer is hell no. So I wasn't a big fan of that.

I won't lie though, Heidi has such BALLS. I almost cracked up laughing when she said that (in a good way). Like, it started off as a regular "diplomatic" type of criticism, and then she just hits him with "really FUCKING stupid decision". icon_laughing Heidi literally doesn't give a fuck and I love the way she never feels the need to preface her opinions with "to me" or "I think", she just spews all her opinions as facts like "I don't got time for this shit" and that's what makes her so love-her or hate-her. I've always thought it helped her come off as a lot less measured and more honest, even when she was full of it. I agree with Dan that her "story arc" was the best here. She really reminds me of a BB6/7 Janelle type in ORG form.

There is definitely something to the idea that she had to sweat the hardest every round, dealt with the biggest target of the three of them consistently, and yet still plowed through to get here. But Hayden's counterpoint about how if you're in that position, it's usually your own fault at least in part. It's just... I don't know, it's personal preference but as I've said, as a juror I tend to find myself being a bigger fan of games that are better able to minimize the amount of luck necessary to get from beginning to end.

I really liked a lot of Tammy's later answers. I do think her game was probably more likely to succeed without Heidi than the reverse, although it was hugely beneficial for both of them to offset each other. I absolutely think it's a big detail that Penner and Hayden were willing to NOT boot Tammy over Ozzy (who they both liked) had Heidi won F7 immunity. I think in some specific key voters' minds at important times, she was able to distinguish herself just enough from Heidi, and was setting herself up to survive much further into the game in the event that they got separated.

I'll take another quick look at some of the answers tomorrow before voting.
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Sierra

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By Penner
#7167 Anyone who was there when Nate got voted out, can you really say Heidi was the person who came up with that? Sierra, Sugar, Hayden and I planned to do that as a backup to flush the idol since the start of that weekend. Who did Heidi convince to vote for Nate that wasn't already voting did him? She didn't have a clue what was really going on but she seems to think she was a master strategist
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Penner

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By Penner
#7174
A lot of the plans that ended up saving me and sending someone else home involved a lot of last minute planning, so I had to sacrifice some of the "deep" and "friendly" conversations I might have had with other people.

A good example of this was some of the final 3 deals I made. I told Penner and Ozzy both, at separate points, that Tammy and I wanted to go to the final three with them. Both times it was sort-of true, to the point where that person wouldn't write us off as people they needed to get out, but also I think we all know that those deals are more about the short-term than the long-term game.


What on earth is Heidi smoking? They very same day we discussed going to the Final 3 together is the day I flipped on her because I knew she was full of shit and had told Richard waaaay back at the beginning that she'd need to turn on me at some point because I was a threat.

She then spent the rest of the game smugly berating me for not accepting her gracious offer of a Final 3 deal and is now admitting it was bullshit.

She has taken such a revisionist approach to the FTC it's really disappointing. She has a real perception gap in terms of having a very internal locus of control; she thinks everything good that happened is down to her and refuses to acknowledge how much luck or the decisions of others played a part.

It's hard to reward someone for playing a good strategic game when they have such an inability to correctly identify the causal link between their actions and the actual outcomes. If she had approached this with an ounce of humility and self-awareness, I'd be voting for her over the others.
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Penner

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By Penner
#7175 tl;dr When I asked her if she benefitted from luck, I wanted her to acknowledge it rather than prove me wrong. Everyone needs a healthy dose of luck to win this game. She doesn't seem to realise that just because she had immunity due to some questionable twists, that doesn't mean she was in control.
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Penner

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By Sugar
#7180 Saying she was in control is nuts, whoever the major alliance was at any point in the game was in control. the only difference being when we were down to smaller numbers, Hayden was always looking to flip he was just waiting for "his moment". He was pushing an Ozzy vote for awhile but never had the backup, there are so many X factors to how this game could have gone.
from the outside it always looked to me that Ozzy was being played by the girls, and I know that either Hayden or Sierra or both were leaking ideas that Penner and I had to Heidi/Tammy to see if something was there. Anybody could've flipped at anytime it's pure luck that we're looking at this final 3. I am by no means trying to take credit away, but I really feel that at the end of the day that the final 7 or 8 would've been interchangeable with how we seem to be debating it.
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Sugar

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#7183 Agree that Hayden was looking for his spot, his big moment the whole game. You kinda felt it the whole way leading up, and he finally got a chance to do it.

And Penner, regarding who Heidi convinced to vote for Nate, I don't really think anyone? Both me and Hayden preferred to see Nate leave over Heidi that round because of the idol at that point pretty much from the start, and yeah I had some selfish reasons why I wanted to keep both Heidi and Tammy around at that time. Speaking just on my own motivations that round, it was more of the totality of my relationship with both her and Tammy that made me want to go that way... neither of us had to be further persuaded, if that's what you're asking. She certainly didn't get anyone to write Nate's down who didn't otherwise want to, as far as I know. I give Tammy and Heidi an equal amount of credit for instilling a good feeling in me about them throughout the merge, making me want them to stay to keep options open.

To be fair though, in a lot of ways that's just as impressive. I was happy when they decided that Nate would be a good target for them that round, because both girls had overestimated my strategic relationship with Nate at that point. And I also thought it was a little odd when Heidi talked about how she wanted to force me to send home Nate, when I thought Nate was the only player in the game who had me in his short-term crosshairs. Can't blame people for thinking that though, since we had been on a tribe together all game long.

Which reminds me, screw you N8 for cock-blocking my "Paschal English" game of zero votes against, then the rock. icon_laughing
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Sierra

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#7195 My vote is in and it wasn't an easy one to cast.

I'll be on for tonight as much as I can! Great season, motherfuckers.
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Sierra

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By Ozzy
#7197
Sierra wrote:My vote is in and it wasn't an easy one to cast.

I'll be on for tonight as much as I can! Great season, motherfuckers.


Cheers to that!
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Ozzy

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By Val
#7201
Sierra wrote:My vote is in and it wasn't an easy one to cast.

I'll be on for tonight as much as I can! Great season, motherfuckers.


Great season! I'm still conflicted about my vote, it's too close for me to feel super happy about not giving my vote to the other two.
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Val

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